SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hi, hello, and howdy, and welcome back to Tiny Sidecar. I'm Kate, your host in Sidecar Sidekick. And today we are buckling up for part two with Amaris. Today's episode gets straight into the meat and potatoes of conversation, which honestly means that it's incredibly full of information. We go over business strategies, we go over feminist leadership, we go into a little bit of sourcing, and even more so like how to treat employees well, how to be proactive in business and in leadership. And I am lucky enough to have just listened to the whole episode for the second time. And I just can't wait for you to get all of the knowledge that I have. So why don't you grab your favorite cup of coffee and let's get straight into it, shall we? But can you also talk to me about some actionables or things that people could do to start to implement more feminism in leadership that might not be there yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah, feminist leadership is super important to me. I think I've only really started using the phrase feminist leadership this year. I've always I think this is sort of like the culmination of many years of thinking about leadership and gender equity. It wasn't always explicitly feminist, I think to me. But the more I've I've challenged myself this year, this has been my year of feminism where I've been like, I have to educate myself, I have to have the vocabulary that I need to express some of the things that I know to be true. And so that that has helped me build a framework for thinking about it in ways that are sustainable and that I can talk about. So I feel like that's finally my role now as a leader. It's not just like be a good manager or like be good to people. Of course, that's true, but it is more about long-term sustainable structures within the company that serve everyone, that isn't just dependent on one person. So that you can't just have like one great manager or one great leader leave and have all that fall by the wayside. Because I feel like that's so unfair. And I've seen that happen with other companies, even other companies where I've I have friends who work for them or like they're nonprofits and or whatever. Like one of my best friends has a really long career working in nonprofits, and some have really, really awesome leadership. But then when they leave, if those qualities or like values that they have that they had brought to the work are not embedded in the DNA of the company, then like all that just dies away, which is just so crappy. You know, you feel like it's not about legacy, it is like a lot about the right now, how can we be good to each other? But it does feel like that should be the responsible thing to do as a leader. Make sure that stuff is sustainable and serves people for a long time. And then it becomes like really community serving, yeah, not like about one person and what they care about. So I feel like yeah, this has been my year of feminist leadership in an explicit way. Um, and Joe has been a good um, like I won't say think tank, that's such a crappy word. But it it's like it has been a good place to talk through some of the things that we care about out loud and how do we make it inclusive, how do we make it serve people, how do we make it um reach from our coffee sourcing to our people? And that was, I think there was a couple of years ago where we had attended some really awesome event. I think it was actually um at SCA, I did this uh panel that got accepted, this lecture, that was like about the gender data gap in coffee and how like a lot of the data that we have is really old. It's like from 2017. And um, it was really good and inspiring and awesome. And I remember my coworker being like, how do we bring this energy where there was curiosity and attention and interest from different people? How do we bring all that to our whole company, not just in this one area of green buying that we care about, but like to our baristas and to our um whole company. We're like a company of 350 people so or more. I think we're maybe we're closer to 400 now. So that is that's the work of making it all part and parcel, not just um caring about people who live really far away. Of course, that work is crucial. We know that, right? We met at the Women Powered Company Summit, but it isn't um it has it has to be everywhere. So I think that's sort of the thing with feminism that it isn't just about um, you know, women or one group who's oppressed. It's like it's about making sure everybody knows um how to come together to make sure everybody can be free, you know, and not one of us is free if someone else isn't. I think that feels really like a more action-oriented call, you know, than anything else. So I feel like for me, the first step to action was calling it out, like identifying it, being explicit about this being the goal. That was huge, making sure everybody at the company was on board with that and wanted that too, and then making sure we all knew how to do that. And so now we have a lot of different strategies for doing that, from hiring, from um being really explicit about the values that are non-negotiable for all of our leaders. It's not just some of the skills that you have, but the values that you have because leaders are so powerful. Like your GM can make or break your life, right? We've all worked for really shitty people at the cafe level. So, like, it doesn't matter if you have a great company who's doing great things and paying such great ethical prices to producers if you have a really shitty GM, you're not really gonna feel like they walk the walk, you know. So, um, yeah, we have 25 cafes. We've done um, we were talking about emotional intelligence too, right? So we do like mandatory emotional intelligence training, and like a lot of people don't have all the skills or opportunities to learn, or like so if someone isn't um really clear on what a specific thing or value means, we offer a lot of education and training so that they have the opportunity to do that. Um, we have a lot of different opportunities for people to connect outside of their like hierarchy, because that's another thing in most businesses. Like, I mean, the shitty corporate thing, right, is that the person that you're able to ask questions of is like your immediate manager. You know, you maybe have very little access to like higher-level leadership. So we have um career affairs, we have mentorship programs, we have um this internal comp uh group in the company called the EBC, which has little committees that do different focused work. So I lead a gender and equity committee, there's also a menu planning committee, there's also um a community engagement committee, and and it's all a mix of like baristas, managers, people from HQ who are on these different groups, and we come together twice a year to talk about the big business decisions where higher-level leadership says, like, these are the things that we care about, like how's that going to impact you? And we all report on the work that we're doing. And those are opportunities for all of us to be in the room and we're all doing the same goal stuff. We're not um, it's like it's not as hierarchical if that makes sense. And so we have a lot of different things like that. That I think for other companies, if you really want that um connection and also like level of engagement that's just not as like power driven, you know, like no one needs to be the one, like I don't need to be the only one like talking in a room, but in a gender and equity committee meeting where there's like there's like eight of us, we can all share equally. All of our contributions are valued equally. We do work together, we sign off on things together, and we care about the same thing, so that's what connects us. It's not um because I have power over anybody else, and I think that stuff is really healthy. I think that helps make your movement toward specific goals actually feel like people can engage in them in ways that are not um, you know, like it doesn't put their job at risk or there's no fear that speaking up too much is a good or bad thing. You know, like I think that type of space is really healthy for a lot of different people who want to engage in stuff outside of their one particular role and help make your values clear to everybody and help bring in yeah, a lot of insight, you know, you're able to do better work together. But so yeah, I feel like that kind of action plan of like defining what it is that you want and how to bring people in in ways that feel productive, you know, not just like do this work because it's part of your job, you know, but like you're more likely to get people who care and want to support that work because they have this skill set or interest. I think that makes more meaningful progress actually happen.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, I think it's so smart too to be like, let's start with what we stand for because then we're attracting people that also hopefully want to be a part of that. But I think the big thing for me is like these community moments of okay, it's not just me that's deciding what's on our menu, it's the eight of us get to decide what we're really excited about because you're so right. I've I think we've all been in the situation where like a great manager leaves and all of a sudden the whole culture is different. And I think when you're building these community moments of like, no, the eight of us care about this. Then if that manager leaves, there's already that foundation in those different subgroups that are like, well, we've got this part, we've got this part, and the buy-in is so strong.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Well, it also then shows that you know anyone can be a leader, you know, like it's not just the one person in the one role that like everybody has the potential and those qualities can be shared. Um, I think that's also really I think that is also really important, especially for for women and young women, right? But I also think it's the acknowledgement that culture is a living and breathing thing, like it doesn't have to stay the same forever. I think a lot of companies fall into that trap too. And those of us who are like coffee dinosaurs like me, like the specialty coffee industry has had a changing and evolving culture since I've been in it. I've been at Joe a long time. I've seen Joe's Joe's culture change, but if you have some of the values as constants, the culture can change and you don't end up sacrificing a lot, or people can leave and you don't end up having a major exodus of everyone being like, Well, you know, that went to shit, so I don't really want to be here anymore. Like you can have good work continue. Um, obviously, you want your great people to stay, but like, you know, you can have all the good things and maybe a new generation of leadership, and that can be good too, it can be healthy. We've seen that a little bit at Joe, even though some of us dinosaurs are still there. But yeah, I think that's like that should be protected, right? Like, if I like this place, ideally it stays this way for as long as you know everybody else wants that too. And I think that's the critical thing. Like, it should stay that way as long as everybody else wants that, and you can co-create that and and you know, make sure people are aware they have to be part of that, you know, that they are part of that equation. It's not just like a mandate.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

And when employees across all levels know that they contribute, it just again, it's like magic. When a company is working like that, it feels different. Everything feels different. Okay, quick segue. So I actually recorded these with Amari's about a week apart, and so I had some time to think about our original conversation. So I'm about to switch the topic and dive back into sourcing and marketing around female produced coffee. Okay, enjoy. What's the first step in feeling like you're not just using this for marketing? Because that's like what I feel like sometimes now.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yeah. Um, I I have learned one of the like one of the most important questions is not actually how much did this person get paid, you know, like the farm gate price. That is important, but the the most important question for me now is when are they getting paid? And that is um one of the most eye-opening things to hear because um I've learned this the hard way. I haven't learned this because I was smart and wanted to figure it out myself. I learned this because a producer told me I don't want to work with that importer anymore or that you know, that supply chain anymore, because um they just don't pay us on time. And I was like, oh oh my gosh, you know, like I'm sorry. Um, yeah, when do you when do you need to get paid? When do you want to get paid? Like, let's figure this out. We can rebuild the supply chain. I don't know. Um I'm not married to an importer just because of our needs. Let's see what you need first. Um and she said, Yeah, we get paid usually when the coffee lands at port of destination, which is um, for many producers, a really, really, really, really, really long time after they need that money. And that year, she she basically told me that we didn't um we can't send as much coffee. We need to sell some of this coffee locally because we need the cash right now. We can't afford to wait until um, you know, like the contract would get paid. So we don't have as much coffee for you to fit this year. And that was yeah, that was huge. So that is my number one question that if they if there's not a lot of context, like of course, I think you probably already know some of the stuff that you would want to know, which is like how do they determine how much someone gets paid? If it's not determined by me, the buyer, who's determining how much they get paid? Is it based on the local market, like Columbia? Is it based on quality? Like, what is it um that determines how much they get paid? Um, it how is it related to quality and all that stuff? And like what does that mean? Like, is that a fair price for that locally? Like sometimes, yeah, we don't have all the information to be able to make that like decision on our own. I've done a little bit more work over the years, over time. Certainly, like this was not something I did at the beginning. It's now like eight years I've been doing this, like to be able to learn more. And then I think also like that thing we were talking about earlier, also about like consistent relationships with the same people over time. That does help you build trust if you don't have a personal connection, but you have like a you can end up having a more like professional foundation of trust, or maybe you can eventually speak to them directly to be able to say, like, how are things going? Like, do you have anything you want to do better next year? You can be vague and get some feedback without having without I think stressing them out because that'll you know, you also want to beware the power dynamic of you're not like going away or anything. But I think when they get paid is really huge. And if someone cannot tell you when they get paid, for me, that's like a walk away moment. But I also feel like um all that stuff, I think we were talking about like sourcing values, right? Like having the ability to like tell someone like this is the stuff I care about, how does that resonate with you? Do you care about these things too? Um, and then also asking like um more questions, like if I wanted to have a direct conversation with the producer, is that possible? Or like um, not necessarily because I want to extract info, but I do want to be able to say, like, how can we better show up for you? Or like if you wanted information from me about like um how we're roasting your coffee or like where are we selling it? Um like we do these like little um, I'm not as good at them as I I need to be better at sending them more frequently. That's my goal for this year. But like producer transparency reports, being like, This is how much coffee we bought from you, this is the product we're using it in if we're using it in our espresso blend or drip blend or just featuring as a single order. This is what the coffee bag looks like. Um, these are some things that maybe our customers said, or we have like three layers of QC notes that we share with like um any kind of customer feedback, um any kind of GM or like cafe level feedback, because they have to do little reports on coffee quality, and then anything the roasting team says. Um, and then um maybe like a couple other little pieces of information, like did we use it right away when we got it? When did it arrive? We I also learned that producers have literally no concept sometimes about like when does the green coffee actually arrive? And when do you use it? Because that's also like sometimes they'll be like, Oh my gosh, did you get the coffee? Is it great? And I'm like, uh, it's still not here yes, yeah, yeah. Because of whatever delays or nonsense. Um, and they're like, you know, they'll be like, oh, you know, I'm shocked. But um, I think like some extra little transparency on that front. And like if I'm telling an importer I want to be able to share information with the producer, and they're not really able to help me that with that, that's also kind of a red flag. And I know sometimes it's really difficult, like in Africa, there are many, many, many, many smallholder farmers that like maybe wouldn't be able to access like an email written in English to them. But you can ask them how would be the best way for them to get information. Like, are is it just data points, not like a pretty PDF, or like when is the best? And that's how I've learned okay, like this particular woman's group in uh Rwanda that we buy from, they have um community meetings like once or twice a year. And like sometimes the importer is there, sometimes like the Copa Kama, like this this cooperative that we buy from, they have reps there. So like I know someone would be there to share, like, here are some notes from a buyer of your coffee, and I know the producer would be interested in hearing some of those things. So, like, if no one is interested in that too, like you're that's like a deal breaker. Yeah, that I think those are just like the far, I think that's actually like farther zoom out than maybe you think. Like, you don't need, I think, every single thing to line up perfectly, but if you run into one of those barriers, that's like, and I have walked away from importer relationships being like, This is kind of shitty, you don't want to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah, yeah. I think it's like, I mean, it does go back to that earlier part of the conversation of just like these are my non-negotiables, and this is the kind of partner I want to be. Is it possible through this middleman relationship of the importing exporting, or is it not possible? And if it's not possible for you, that's cool. Someone else is gonna buy that coffee, I'm gonna find a different relationship. Yeah. Um, similar, we kind of talked about this as well. Is I know I I love that you brought this up earlier, and I don't know if we were recording when you brought it up, but we talk a lot about how to be better for producers. I feel like this is like a very important conversation. Um, and I'm glad that this is a conversation that is like very top of mind in coffee. But you also mentioned like, how do we be better to our employees that are right next to us? And like we talk so much about this relationship that's across the world. And again, very important. This is very important conversation, but I do love the idea of like maybe we need to zoom back in a little bit and look at who is our staff, how we're treating them, what those relationships are. Can you talk to me a little bit more about some things that are again like non-negotiables with employees or things that you have decided like this is the kind of relationships I want to foster here at Joe?

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, that's so it's just so important. And this is it is really hard, but like just like it's a balance to be like, okay, if every year we want to make sure we're more and more and more poised to pay the prices that producers ask for and you know, say that they need, we also have to do the same with our staff and learn how to improve year over year. So we're not just saying, like, check, we pay a great wage. Like um, we've had a couple of like wake-up moments at Joe over the years, being like, Yeah, we paid a great wage like two years ago. You know, New York has changed since then. So now um we have a really amazing director of people and culture, and she really helps hold us accountable to these goals, which are like, yeah, every year we should be um making sure we're assessing some of the big stuff, make sure that the wages are always on the table and make sure we're not just feeling like comfortable with whatever it is that we say we've paid. Um, but also look at it, you know, holistically, like, yes, it's about wages, it's also about people's voice and making sure that they can reach us and share what's important to them. And some of the things are not just wages for them. We've also learned that the hard way. Um, with like maybe people are really upset that their um AC breaks every summer, and like New York is a shitty old city with perennial electrical problems, and like you know, that's just shitty and it's bad working conditions. So, like, how can we create a policy where um we are intentional about some of these like high crisis moments? We set the standard of what it means to be. Transparent and communicative if things happen that we can't predict, but we're proactive about making sure we um are planning for these things that don't catch us by surprise. Like that's the responsibility of a company of our size, that we're being proactive. We're not just being reactive and waiting for people to tell us what they need. And I think that's the thing that we can be better at even than on the producer side, because we live here also. You know, we don't have we can actually be legitimately proactive because we know what it costs to live here. We know the things that put major strains on our business. This summer has been like an absolute shit show of like wildfire for wildfire smoke, and we have a couple of like cafe um locations that are of like open awnings, you know, or um some we've had like a hundred plus degree days where people's ACs break. Um, so we've had to make decisions to close, to change hours, you know, try to find people hours so that they don't lose it on their paycheck just because of a freaking wildfire in Canada, you know, like a lot of that stuff is really difficult to navigate. Or like flash floods and the subway closes, like what? You know, like that just happened on Saturday night. We had wild. We had blizzards all this spring. We had to call like the mayor shut down the city a couple times, like rightfully so. We've had some bananas weather, but like all these things that happen affect people's paychecks if they're an hourly employee, they affect our business. So we have to tow the balance of like what can we afford to do? We have to acknowledge your experience. But like it should it shouldn't fall on you know just one party to bear that burden, just like we don't ask the producers to bear all the risk, and that's sort of like our goal in equity is making sure we account for some of that. So yeah, I think we we try really, really hard to make sure we're trying to include our employees' experience in some of the big ethical work that we do. But also that's like the big imperative. And this is sort of like I'm remember telling you like I had this like financial thing where I was like, oh my gosh, like this is so stressful and hard, and I hate it. But like that is the work to prove that the business works so that some of this values-oriented work is possible because it does cost money to raise wages every year and everything else that we want to do, like offering PTO for um like all-hourly employees, or like lowering the health insurance benefits to like anyone who works um 20 20 hours or more. Like we offer a lot of things, um, or like um two years, two years ago, three years ago, we started a 401k for every single employee in our company and started doing like legacy matching that way. Like, the more you work, the more your matching include increases, and taught financial literacy. Like, that's something that we all all of us who are dinosaurs in coffee were like you know, you go back 20 years ago. I started working in coffee in 2006. I did, and like no one was talking about like how to put money in the bank, or like, you know, a lot of us young people who grew up in coffee were because we didn't follow that traditional corporate path. Like we financial literacy is not something that we came out of the womb with. Exactly. So like how can we equity is also like changing that narrative and not just assuming people know what to do, but like if we think this is a healthy industry that people can um do really dignified, like awesome work in, it should be an industry that people can afford to work in for 20 plus years. And like, I'm only just now affording to be able to work in coffee, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, that's also insane, you know. Like I worked so many different jobs in coffee until like right before the pandemic, and where I could just focus on Joe because I couldn't afford to just have one coffee job, you know, and we've learned the hard way too in the pandemic of like, yeah, this is something that's like non-negotiable, you know, like the psychological contract with between employees and employers like changed completely, like totally fizzled away, had to be rebuilt brick by brick. New York we felt it so strongly, like that is not a lesson we can we can or should like unlearn. So that has been like really critical, and it's a lot of work. Sometimes it's like you know, heavy is the head, right? But it's like we can't just we have to be intentional everywhere or it doesn't work, it doesn't matter, you know. Like the producers that we think we care about and have a responsibility to, like, they don't win out if our company goes under, so we have to make sure we're balancing the books, and like the same goes for baristas, you know, like we have to be good stewards of everything, but also make sure we're investing appropriately so that like um you know that can continue to thrive. And um my uh like some of the leaders of the company, they say like it's called creating economy, you know, like this is sort of it, like it's kind of on us, like if we really want to make this thing work and also make this a place where other people can thrive, and like this is where it begins, it's not really like as top-down, or we can't wait for big coffee to to catch up, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah, I 100% agree with you, especially like as you were talking, I was thinking about how the industry itself has so much research and so much that we want to do to understand things better and to support throughout the supply chain, right? But if you want people to stay in those roles or potentially move into those roles, a lot of times those are people that maybe they started as a barista fell in love with coffee. You have to make it so they can get from point A to point B. Um and even so, like just thinking about what we want from baristas these days. Like, I know when I travel, I am such a little snob about like listening to the milk beasting and then be like, okay, I'll get an ice drink here. Like, you know, and like if you want a barista in rural Montana to make you the perfect latte, like you're gonna have to pay them a certain way for people to stay in the industry, or give a lot of education.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

That's also something else we we care so much about. Like, we put everybody through four days of barista training. We like have like five different educational classes a month, and then people get paid for all their training and all their even this like um EBC meeting that meetings that I was telling you about earlier. But yeah, yeah, I also feel like you have to pay people to learn and you have to make sure it's clear this is an investment, like it's value. Like you could take those skills and go to any other coffee company, like, but like it is it's important for your job, like it's worth it for your job. Like, we think it's a really good skill. It is skilled labor, it's not just casual throwaway labor. Like, you know, that's what everyone got enraged in the pandemic when people were complaining. You know, it's like it's such skilled labor, you know. And of course, in this like new era of AI and robots or whatever, like, yeah, it's really skilled. So, like, pay people well, yeah, but also like make sure that they know that that skill is something that you should keep growing and growing, growing. Like, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yeah. I laugh because um I recently saw a video of I think it's the Denver Airport, has put a robot barista. Have you seen any videos? Did they? I think they did. I think it was Denver. Um, but it was like a couple trying to get coffee from this robot barista, and the robot just kept like picking up the cup, going towards like the dispenser, and then just dropping the cup. Nothing would happen. This massive pile of cups. And they're like, man, we're never getting this coffee, are we? Um, yeah, I I I'm very excited and also curious. I feel like if customers continue to demand what they want from the coffee industry, and if they want coffee that's been sourced well, that is roasted well, that is brewed well, then I mean the sustainability inside the coffee chain altogether has to work because those people, I mean, we talk about per producers not wanting to take on their family farm or not want it to like go into farming because they're not being paid correctly. And the same thing happens with baristas. If baristas can't make money doing that job, then they'll move on and do something different. And that rotating door is expensive for the cafe, and it's not sustainable. Like I do think we are getting to a point where customers are asking for more, and I think that they're looking at it as this is so important to me. I'm willing to pay X, Y, and Z for my latte or X, Y, and Z for my roasted coffee. Um, which I do think is exciting because I'm hoping that it creates more sustainability and wages also in consuming countries, that you don't have to be the manager, or you don't have to be whatever it might be in order to have a living wage. Um yeah, I do when you brought it up earlier, I was like, we should talk about that because I don't think enough people really realize what level you have to get to in coffee in order to feel some comfort in your day-to-day life. Like you have to be willing to grind if you want to stay in this business, and it just shouldn't be that way. Like you should be able to find that kind of stability at a younger place in your career for sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Well, I think also we this is maybe the less the New York lesson is that we have a comp a lot of competition. Other coffee companies, there's a there are a billion in New York City. So like there's a lot of other employers that people can work for also. So like that can be healthy, you know, it can make sure it can make you feel like, okay, great, I've got to provide something that's better, right? If we want to keep my art like are really like amazing, amazing, talented people. Um, but the longer I work in this, the more I'm like the bar is kind of low. Like treating people well or with kindness or like um meeting them where they are, like that also shows that like emotional intelligence is a skill. That is skilled labor, also, you know, it's not unpaid emotional labor. It is really, really like highly skilled and valued emotional labor. Um, a lot of women are really good at it. So we want to make sure those people can like stay, you know, stay in their job, stay doing the work that they do, do it well, and show up for people well, and um can feel like they're valued and taken care of so they can continue doing that and being great role models. You know, it's like when I was younger, I was like, why is it that like because I work for a lot of different coffee companies, but I was like, why everyone wants me to be like a manager? And like even one manager, one guy one that I worked for was like, Oh, you're so nurturing. And at the time I was like, that's fucking gender-coded language, and I hate it. But then I was also like, I'm a big sister, so I'm actually like coded to do this. I'm not the most nurturing person. I'm gonna be the first to say, like, I'm not, like, I'm an Aquarius, I'm a little detached, you know, but I I'm a rising Virgo, I'm very organized, you know. So, like, I was like, I think I'm just a woman, and that's what you're seeing. Um, and I I I resisted that a lot, but that experience taught me. I was like, I finally put my finger on, I was like, what is it that's missing in all these rooms where women aren't? It's emotional intelligence, and that's the thing that I know we bring to the industry, and um it's not just gendered. I don't, I'm not like here to say only women can be emotionally intelligent. I think that was like my experience when I was younger. All the great managers I had were women, and they just had a like, you know, this much more emotional intelligence than the rest. And that made all the difference. Like, all the difference. It's like that is something that I think is like, yeah, to use your word, non-negotiable in a workplace. I think it just has to be expected of all managers, doesn't matter what gender you are, but that is the thing that you can't compromise on.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

It's gotta mean something to that manager to have emotional intelligence. It's gotta be something that you're willing to work on because I feel like you always have to grow, especially when you have new employees come in. Everyone needs something a little bit different from you. Yeah. And you have to be flexible with meeting that person where they are and you know, expecting from them, but also giving them guidance on how to be successful. And not everyone is gonna be like a turnkey employee that is like maybe they haven't had great experiences before, and maybe they are scared of you as a manager because of what they just came from. Um, I think that's key to it too, is like sometimes the people that I see like don't have that skill set already, also don't necessarily care to have it. And I feel like that's like such a red flag for me because you cannot have it and be like, oh, I could have done better there, or like how would I do better? But the ones that like really stick out in my brain, I'm like, you just didn't even care that you didn't have it, like you didn't care about that person's experience at all. And I just that's a hard, a very hard sell these days. Like, you can't be that kind of person in that role anymore. Like, it's just not people will put up with it. You don't have to, like, COVID has changed, like you said, so much that people expect more from managers, people expect you to be able to flex with them and understand them, and rightfully so. I mean, 40 hours of your week, if not more, is hanging out with these people and doing stuff for them. So you should expect a lot from the people that are leading you.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

It was a big wake-up call after COVID. Like, I think we we actually legitimately lost a generation of baristas in New York City because it was it was so bad, and I think so many companies handled it so poorly. And right after also, like all um of the racial issues and social justice calls to action. I think it was a time when a lot of employers were put um kind of like um on in the hot seat by employees, and I think a lot of people didn't do well. And we yeah, we lost. I mean, there was a year or two years maybe where we had a major issue with talent. Like no one was applying for jobs, no one, no one wanted to work in coffee. And my whole life in New York before that, for seven years before the pandemic, we had more job applications than we could handle. You know, like everybody wanted a part-time job, or like, you know, everyone because we just were a city full of students and artists, and you know, we we were spoiled in having like so many people to choose from. And then there was like two years where it was impossible. And so that really, I think hopefully taught a lot of people in New York the hard lesson of like, yeah, you really have to treat people well, and it's expensive to have people like the turnaround and not having a great retention rate, and that's what matters more than maybe who you hired, like people who cared about diversity and we're starting to wake up to that. Like, it doesn't really matter who you hire, like if they don't feel good there or that sense of belonging, they're not gonna stay, and and that's uh fair, that's really fair. They should you shouldn't probably stay somewhere where you don't feel good, but yeah, that I think that's the era that we're in, and it's kind of like great, but it's a really big responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Yeah. Okay, I have one last question for you. One last question. Um, if you uh if you were for like looking out into the future five years from now, knowing everything that we've just talked about and how COVID has changed so much, but also your leadership style, what is one thing that you hope the coffee industry will have like grown or adapted, or like that's the business as usual now, five years from now. What's what's the main impact? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 38:20

I think we need more tools for how to commit to living wages for producers and baristas. Like we've been talking about that internally this year. Like uh if we wanted to make a commitment to living wages and have it be public, because obviously we do some work, but you know, it's um it's just never as good as we want it to be, obviously. But if we wanted to say, like, this is how we commit to living wages and share the template for doing that for both producers and baristas, like that could be a goal for us. But I think it doesn't need to be just us, but I think there needs to be some kind of clear template because we've done so many things over the years, right? Like the sustainable coffee transaction guide, or you know, like the there's different traceability tools that exist, but they don't really tell someone how do you use some tools or how do you create a template for yourself that can adapt to your business to make like a three to five year plan for living wages for the most risk burdened in your business, which are baristas and producers, like alike, it can't be siloed. I don't haven't seen anyone connect them, and not to say you have to pay producers this and produ producers that, like I just mean like how do you get there? Haven't seen a single tool or template. Um, and that's the kind of thing that I would look for now, you know, like we have to figure out our ourselves and make our own strategy, just like when we started doing like producer transparency reports, there wasn't a template or a tool. Like I had a couple companies I knew who were doing something like that, and so I had to ask them, What did you do here? You know, like and so I asked so that I could learn and you know figure it out. But um, that just doesn't exist. And then like uh three or four years before that, I was like, How are people having values-based conversations with their suppliers? I didn't know anybody who was doing it. So like I made a how-to like document. Here's how. And you know, I like so I I have been like trying to share what I learned as I go, but why why aren't we all doing that? You know, like we're all just kind of puffling and like working really hard. I know that's because the work is hard, like it's hard to do the work and look up, you know. But I think that's what I want to see normalized, like more people open source sharing some stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

The second you said it, I was like, I would take any of those right now. Yeah, like absolutely, I think it'd be so helpful to have like a database where you could go like we are so secretive about what we're doing, and I think it is again, like you said, the work's hard, so you're like in it and focus on like what my company needs to do. But in a lot of ways, we're all trying to do at least a handful of us are all trying to do the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Yeah. Even just little things like, okay, you want to start becoming a company that's like 100% forward contracting. Like, how do you do that? Like, I had to figure that out and build a spreadsheet and then use it for like two years to figure out that it worked and like tweak it and adjust it and tweak it and adjust it. But like now, if someone was like, How do you do that? I would be like, Okay, here's a spreadsheet. I'll remove all my data. Yeah, plug in your own data. I don't you don't need my data to make it work, but that's like a template, right? Um, and I haven't done that because well, I just yeah, I've been like nose to the grindstone. But like that's the kind of thing that I feel like I would love to see more of that, but also just um talking about connecting those things. Everyone, I think no one's doing like doing that. It's really siloed, and it's not just an HR issue. I think that's another thing that I kind of get annoyed. Like five years ago, like talking about women and coffee was like a women's issue, and it was like, no, it's a sustainability coffee industry issue. It's not about it's not a women's issue. Don't just put all the women in a room and don't listen to them. Like, we need everyone to care about this thing. And now I think this is the same thing happening with like employee barista wages and like equitable workplaces, like it's not just an HR issue, it's like the sustainability of the industry issue, you know. Like we're not hearing about unionizing every single day in the news for no reason. Yes, we're not. Yeah, there's a reason, yeah. And it's way more affordable to actually like do well by people, and you know, then you're get you're proactive, you know, you're not just reacting when someone wants to talk to you through a union, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

I love I love hearing about the proactive side of it because I think so many businesses do sit back and like, well, no one's complaining, so they must be happy. Right. And it's like if you ask anyone, anyone in the world, are you getting everything that you possibly could want from your job? Like benefits, salary, whatever it might be, education, no one is ever going to say to you, yes, 100% I'm getting absolutely everything I want for my job. Like just no one is. Like we're lying to ourselves if we're saying that our employees are 100% happy, if we're not doing that work to like check in and see what's possible.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Not that everything is possible, but no, and we've done, I mean, I'm we're not even I'm not anti-union at all. I love unions, but um, like there are times when you can say, like, yeah, that that wage is not possible right now. Like there are one I yeah, there have been many like hard conversations in my career where like I can't even say, like, honestly, like um, I would love that to be true, because like that's always true, you know, you always want everyone to get what they want, but like I have the privilege of context. I can I know what pretty much everybody in our company gets paid. So like sometimes I'm like that's unrealistic because like everyone needs to go up by that huge chunk if you get that, and and I know that's just it's not gonna happen this year, right? So you have to you have to be able to kind of like you know listen well, listen with um responsibility and share the context that you have and um constantly be looking at like okay, that's not a pipe dream, and I shouldn't brush it off for being crazy. If I wanted that for that person, like how would we actually do that? That's the thing that my boss always does. He's like, Okay, you're in the power seat. How are we gonna do that? I'm like, I want to raise wages for everybody. He's like, Okay, how are we gonna do that? Like, yeah, no one's coming to do that work for us. We are the ones that have to do that work for us. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

I love it. Anything? What uh what have we missed? Have we missed anything?

SPEAKER_00 44:56

No, I'm the one that keeps going on rants and getting um carried away in. So no, no, no. I think we've covered everything. I think this is such a good conversation. I think this is the kind of thing that me 10 years ago was like desperate and craving to hear other people talk about. Um, so I know that there are people out there who just enjoy that there are people who care about some of these things and are caring to talk about them.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Wow, I feel incredibly lucky to be a part of these conversations and to be spending time with you. Um, the largest thank you to Amari's for being on Tiny Sidecar and sharing some knowledge with us. I am incredibly grateful to her. I'm literally sitting next to a pile of notes of things that I've learned on the second time through listening back. Um, I hope you have an incredible day. There's so many amazing guests that are coming up in the next couple of weeks, and so lots to look forward to. Um, but yes, thank you as always for being here and spending some time with me. Can't wait to see you in the next one. Bye.