SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hi, hello and happy, and welcome back to Cards ICard. I'm Kate, your host, and Psychour Psycho. And today we have the VP of Coffee at Joe Coffee Company, Amaro Craft. And before we get into the first and foremost on that, I'm so happy to have it back. I feel like it's really nice to have some more incredible documents on the video and say it's not a five. I'm going to get a little bit of a peek into a marketing part of the work and typically like also the knowledge from someone that grew up in a company, or at least for a couple of company. I'm really honored to have been able to find this part with her. And the lucky thing about it is that we actually recorded two platforms together. So this is only the first part of the first weekend and sharing with us, and the second part will be out very soon. So you know what time it is. Grab your favorite cup of coffee. Let's sit back, relax, and enjoy some time with Amari.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

So I'm Amari Skutier's Ray. Um I'm the in my professional life, I'm the VP of Coffee for Joe Coffee Company in New York City. Joe is uh it's like a pretty good company. We do a lot of different things. We roast coffee, we have our own cafes. We have like 25 cafes in the city, and like a really big uh range of wholesale customers and different people who use our coffee. So uh we do education also, public education and internal education, and we do tech services, so we help other people with espresso machines and things. So it's a really nice, it's like a very like coffee service-oriented type of company. I really like that. Um and I've been at Joe since 2015. So coming up on my 11th year, I just celebrated my 11th year at Joe. Thank you. Um, but I've been working coffee a long time. I guess like as a person, I started in coffee in um like the mid-2000s, like as a college student. I needed a job. Um, I I worked I started working really early. Like, I think my first job was when I was 14. I probably wasn't allowed to work, but yeah, I've always I've always worked. Um I always had to kind of um contribute or pay my own way. And I thought I knew something about coffee because my family is from Central America and my grandma was always like, Micro and coffee is the best coffee in the world. And you know, when you're little, you're like, Oh my gosh, amazing! That's so cool. Where how how is it possible? We happen to come from the same country where the best coffee comes from. That's amazing, you know? And then the older you get, you're like, okay, wow, there's a little bit more context here. It's a big world of coffee. Um, and I think that is pretty quickly what got me hooked uh staying in coffee because right when I started working in coffee, I think the industry was turning a bit to be a little bit more interested in origin. It was very early days of being of people being interested in where coffee came from. Latte art, the kind of like big boom of people could be really skilled working in cafes. I think that was sort of what the the shift in my mind of like seeing coffee as a possible industry to work in, not just a supporting industry that I could work within while doing something else. So by the time I was done with grad school, I was like, oh yeah, there's there's not really any other industry that combines absolutely everything that I'm interested in. And what are all these, you know, credentials or degrees for if I'm not really doing them in ways, using them in ways that feel impactful. So I think that was when I was also like, okay, I'm an impact type of person, or like I'm a meaning type of person. I'm not just a get my check and go home kind of person. I kind of want all the things I do in my life to be connected or be part of me, not just separate, and I get to be someone else when I go home. So that was I think a really that was what made me also stay in the coffee industry because I was like, I can really fully be me here. I'm not required to be some other professional self, you know, that I'm only half of me in. I get to really be my full self. And it was also the first time that I was like, my like biracial identity actually has some use here too. Like I am from the United States, but I speak Spanish and I have cultural fluency because like I know where my family is from, and I have been there and I've seen, you know, I I have this kind of feeling of connection that is it is useful in the coffee job that I had at the time, and that just was like, okay, yeah, I'm I'm in it for life. I kind of pretty quickly saw that as soon as I applied myself in that way. So my person and my professional self are all coffee ultimate answer.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

I had someone ask me a question once, they're like, Well, what do you do outside of coffee? And I'm like, honestly, more coffee. Um, I feel like when you find when you find something that you're talking about where it's like in my soul, I feel like this all just like kind of connects and all like it it's the meaning of my life that I'm looking for. I think coffee very well can be that for people because there are so many layers, but it is interesting how it's just like, yeah, it's my profession, it is my personality, it is my heritage, it is my X, Y, and Z. It can be so many things. And I love that. What'd you get your master's degree in?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Museums and archival policy. Okay. That's like the name of the MM, isn't it? Like, um, so it was I studied specifically like the archival stuff. So kind of like who owns records, like who gets to in yeah, have access to them and interpret them, who gets to use those to actually tell the story, and is it telling story, is it telling history? Um that's way cool. That type of stuff. Yeah, that's kind of like really interesting operations and philosophy in a way, like um cultural memory is the thing I was super interested in.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah, like how a history is learned and how culture like takes it onto like the next generations. Really fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Do you use that part of yourself with coffee as well, then? Like how the stories are told throughout coffee and yeah, I totally, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Um, I also have like um one of my coworkers says like I have like um like a researcher brain. I like to read a lot about stuff, and I think that is just like I learned some of those skills in grad school. I'm not like a writer or anything that like I don't I don't express myself that way anymore, but um, or like in an academic way, but I do fully appreciate like there is usually more context to a story. Like I was a kid that was like, don't believe everything you read. Like, um like Huffington Posts, I'm like Googling like uh what political leaning does Huffington Post have? Like, you know, when I was like a teenager, because I was like, I'm not just gonna believe this, yeah you know. So that I think is the main thing that I've carried through from grad school being like that that was validated there. That's like a really useful skill to have. And I think that does really help in like the history of coffee and understanding like context for everything, why things are the way that they are, and like kind of like the confidence to ask questions because you know there's probably more to learn, or just like the learner's mindset in general, like that.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I think is the thing that probably most coffee people have, but um not everybody really acts on I think that those are the people that I tend to look up to in coffee because the people that are like this is how it is or this is how it was. I'm like, there's so much that we don't know about things that aren't in our own sight, even things that are in our own site, like in my roasting company, like things change all the time. So nothing's a fact, like you can't go without being like it's a fact.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yeah, yeah. I think that's also like the roaster mind. I think that's why I was like so drawn to roasting for like you know, I was a roaster for a really long time, and because it's like everything is new, you can all the time, every new moment that unfolds before you is like you can be roasting the same coffee so frequently, or like year over year, every year you get it, or over different seasons, like the amount of change is greater than like the amount of things that stay the same, and finding a little bit of like not comfort or peace in that, but kind of just like being in it without a judgment call one way or the other. I think you have to be that way for it to be a good roaster because otherwise it's so frustrating because you're like, Oh, I just roasted this yesterday, you know. Why is it wildly different today? And like it, yeah, if you are kind of the person who really needs that sense of control or c or stability, your roasting is probably not for you. But um, if you're okay with it, it is so rewarding. You can be a production roaster, you know, forever.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

There's something really beautiful about roasting, and I get hypnotized whenever I'm doing it. I love just the whole process and like being in it. It's very, it's very pretty, very beautiful. And it's also, I don't know, I really take there's something about roasting that's so special that you know that you're like roasting someone's morning cup right now. Or like you know that whoever's drinking this hopefully it's making their day better. Like it's just so immediate because you are like that's what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Um you're much more like tangibly connected to the whole process, and I think that yeah, that is like a privilege for sure. Mm-hmm. Because there aren't that many, like there's more people who consume it and hands the are involved processing it than there are roasting, and I think that is sort of like a responsibility. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Absolutely. And I feel like when someone's been drinking your coffee for a while too, they're like, I know if you're doing a good job, I know if this is consistent, versus if it's not. So I think you also get like the real-time feedback from customers of either like coffee's amazing, coffee's so great, you guys are doing a good job. Like, coffee drinkers will tell you if your coffee's not hitting a mark. Um and I there's other parts where like, oh, maybe my latte wasn't perfect this time, but it might be next time. But if someone buys a bag of your coffee and is drinking it at home and it's not right, like those are the people that send the email that are like, what's they do? Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

I we Joe Joe's been around a long time, and so we've had a lot of customers for a long time. And um, I was around when we launched like a website to sell our coffee on, and so we have customers who like and we're a tiny team, like literally two people do customer service emails for our online orders, like one of my coworkers or me. Like we're just a tiny we're a small team, and so we do have some customers that we know will like they'll either notice when a component changes, because we have a couple of blends that like you know, theoretically, obviously the flavor notes are the same, but they know they'll know and they'll be like, What did you change? Or you know, they'll they'll know immediately, and sometimes it's good, sometimes you're like, did you like it? You know, because I'm like, I don't want to say sorry if you if it wasn't a bad change for you. Yeah, but um, it is also like so heartwarming when they love it and they're they're really grateful. Like they're there are a couple of boomers that like bless their little hearts, they don't really know how to use our website after all these years. So we make adjustments for them, you know. We're just like, that's fine, I can be your personal secretary for the rest of time, Gildagottly, whatever you do. I got you on your girl. But like it also makes it so much better when like I have received voicemails from Gildagottly because she now has my phone number. And she'll be like, I was just at Zaybars. Do you know how much they charge for coffee? You could charge so much more. Your coffee is better than that. And I'll be like, Oh, thank you. Thank you. So nice. But like those are the customers that yeah, they totally know, and it keeps you humble for sure. Um but it also can be so rewarding if I mean they don't it's not always that you get great feedback, but you know, it's nice.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yes. I think the good feedback is great. I think whenever we get negative feedback about something, if like the roast is tasting off, or like if we've made a change and they're not super stoked on it, it is um it's like a good learning lesson for the team too. Of well, these are our customers, these are the people that are buying our coffee. So you gotta know who you're selling to, and if they're giving you feedback, they don't like what you're doing. Yeah. It's sad that the five of us do, but you have to adjust for your customers. Um, because then I mean, our more traditional coffees like are very the more popular coffees are still the most traditional coffees. Yeah. And then we have some like really fun, playful ones that we all love drinking, but they're a little less popular. And so like you need the traditional ones to work in order to have the fun, fruity ones that we all want to consume all the time. A little bit of both.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

I do love that interaction though. Those are always really fun. They're fun.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

So you have a small team. What is it like? You're the VP of coffee, correct? So, like what what's day-to-day look like for you? What is what what's your life like?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Oh my gosh, I feel like the I mean the short answer is that like in the two days are the same, because I do a lot of different things. Um, I manage like a lot of different teams, so it sort of depends a lot on like what time of year it is or like what projects we've got going on, or so I split my time between uh the roastery that we have in Long Island City and Queens, and then we have an office in the city. All of our cafes are in the city for the most part, except for a couple in in Brooklyn and Queens. So I can be in the office um doing like more office-y things because I manage all of our all the finances for our department, and I am um sort of like on the higher-level leadership team for the company. So anytime we're talking about um big things like brand choices or um policy that affects our people, um, or um, we have this group, this internal group that helps contribute decision-making advice or feedback that are um it's kind of like um a like a group of small committees and part of a larger committee that are basically the people who are make up the majority of the company who we bring business questions to, or like, are we thinking about choosing to do this? Like, how will that affect you? Or they bring things to us to say, we really think you need to pay attention to this or address this topic. So I kind of do those types of more like higher level like HQ things within a with like the small group of leadership of the company. But I'm I'm just like um all over doing different things. So I uh I also do all of our green buying um and sourcing. So like I could be on any given day, you know, cupping pre-ship samples or um teaching a class. I teach a class every month or two internally to our staff on like supply chain logistics or um the history of coffee, things like that. Um yeah, doing finances, like end-of-period stuff. It's usually a lot of computer work, um, um, people management. So like because I I I manage besides the like retail teams who are quite large, like I manage the largest teams, like the coffee teams, roastery production, education, and coffee services. So um people's reviews, people's you know, questions or issues that they want to talk through or address, or like supporting people who are going through something, or um who want questions about like something in the handbook. I don't know, those types of like personnel things. Um, I do a lot of anytime we do any kind of marketing effort to make sure we're representing our coffee values correctly. I work really closely with our marketing teams. Um it's so it's it's like I love it because it's it's all a lot of different things that kind of connect to a greater whole. Like, how do we show up really well for our people and who we employ here in New York City? How do we show up really well for the people that we're buying coffee from? And that kind of penetrates like all aspects of the business. Um so sometimes it's chaotic, sometimes it feels really good, and I get in a good flow and I can see how everything works together. Um but it never no two days are the same.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, it's a heavy plate, but I think I've just listening to you talk about all the different areas. What is cool is like the through line throughout it, because it comes through you, you're like, okay, that's that's who we are, that's not who we are, that's who these producers are, that's not who they are. And the consistency that you're able to see so much of it and how it works that it's like, yeah, no, this is Joe, or no, it's not. This isn't what we do here. Um but that's a heavy plate, that's a lot of different areas. Yes. Yes. Yes, in fact, it is. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are times when I um I was just talking about this with one of my coworkers the other day, that like there are definitely times when I'm like, this is ridiculous. Like, there are huge companies that have like a team of green buyers, and one person does markets, and one person does contracts, and one person does QC, and one person does like projections, and it's like I I've met people from those companies. Um, and we we are not that company, so like sometimes I'm like, ugh, like one day that's actually sometimes when I like want to like psych myself up and talk myself out of burnout, is being like, we have to prove that business and values can work and the company can profit, and we can one day hire all those roles that I want. Um, we're we're not there, obviously, but like that's the goal, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

A favorite part of all of your roles. Do you have something that is like that's the thing that really keeps me from burnout? That brings me so much joy and passion.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Yeah, it's actually cupping. I feel like um one of my favorite things to do is to like sometimes I I have to cup like to do my things, like not just production roasting cupping or something. Like I we all do those things together as a team, but like okay, I have to get this pre-ship cupped and things like that. I love like running into the lab, like doing my cupping thing. It sort of is my like okay, like it forces me to pause. I cannot multitask. I can't have my email open while I'm in a meeting, and like you know, like it's kind of like roasting, I guess. I just don't I don't get to roast as often as I am as I used to now. You cannot multitask. It's like by nature of the thing that you're doing, you can't multitask. So I think it is really great. It slows my mind down, but it also just reminds me like wow, what a privilege! Like, we get to taste this thing and do this thing that connects us to all these people. This is the physical thing out of all the conceptual things, out of all the like value things. Cupping is definitely my happy place.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Special time in the coffee process um world to have that. And it is, it's like it's cool to see like what you do, how's the crap turning out? Like, what have you changed?

SPEAKER_00 20:06

It's also not like a reflection of your work yet, I think. Like it's also what's so special about it because like it's not it's like sample roast, we haven't it's not a production rails yet. Yeah. Um, it feels like this is the moment where you get to really appreciate someone else's work before you know your work begins. And that's something that's like I think you can't like compromise on that step, even if it's not related to cupping. Um, but that's what forces me, I think, to get in that mind space. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

What are some of your sourcing values? What are the things that you've kind of implemented in the company through your green buying?

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Well, I was lucky in that I I came into Joe at a time when they were starting to think about that because um Joe's been around a long time. Like Joe actually um yesterday was his 23rd birthday. Wow. So yeah, I know, it's lovely. Um so and they didn't start as a roasting company, they started as a they started roasting their own coffee in 2013. So I think by the time I started, um they had spent the first couple of years, I think, yeah, obviously learning how to roast and being consistent and kind of reverse engineering some of the coffees that they had been buying from other coffee cup coffee coffee roasters at the time. So it was a really good time I got to start my journey as a roaster with Joe, like while they were starting to have some of those conversations about like company voice, like what do we care about? So so that had already kind of been happening a little bit by the time I actually got my role. I got the role of Green Buyer, not the role I have now, but um Green Buyer in 2018. So that was really um it was really good timing because I think like some of the bigger questions about like what do we care about had been done. It wasn't just price driven like or mechanics. I think it was sort of like the the Concept we should have values or a value system, like was established. I didn't have to prove it. So like I guess like I know other people who have come into roles like mine and have had to basically prove a business case for like why values matter. So like I didn't have to do that work, so I do feel really lucky. But um I didn't necessarily like invent the values um that we had, but I think I've been the one to live them. We sort of set them at that time. Like uh my boss at the time and I um he's an amazing writer, and like so he had done some work trying to distill a lot of the conversations they were having in the company about what they cared about, and they were setting a like value system for the cafes, and they were also setting a value system for like what role do we want to play as a green coffee fire and roasting company? So they were kind of contrasting those, and he was in that sort of space a little bit like maybe higher above my head. So, anyway, we we established sourcing values of um collaboration, ethics, integrity, and quality. So quality is a uh a component, but not like the only thing. And we sort of define them and try to find a way to measure them. And I think through our process of trying to define them, it made it really clear like, okay, we need to have something that we can specifically talk to people about, but also like if we really find something that fits those values, like it makes it very difficult actually to stop working with someone because you've kind of entered that commitment cycle, or like if you're rating a relationship on collaboration, like how well can you speak together about what matters to you, share feedback about quality, and it goes both ways, you know, like we're voluntarily sharing information, we're not just extracting information. Um, there's like a you know a loop of some kind that's mutually beneficial, and we're open to conversation about any like things that are really important to each other. And at the same time, we're using other values like our ethics and integrity values, or learning about like, okay, how do we build context? How do we build education? How do we learn from each other? How do we learn what it means to be a better business partner? How do we learn, like, what do you care about? Like, gender equity maybe doesn't matter to you, or it shows up in a way that's different than what I assume. Sort of like uh understanding, like, yeah, what what does your business like thrive on? Like, what makes it tick? What do you care about? Like, and that is like the more you have those conversations, the more you get that layer of um detail from people. Like some producers like care a lot about education, or um, you know, like they're having like a um strong foundation for their family, sending their kids to school. Some are like, I have this other like diverse areas of business. I sell seedlings, or I sell like other things that I grow and produce. And I don't know, I feel like, or there's very like special processing skills that they're proud of. And those are things that I think, like, um, yeah, you can create a survey of like, tell me all these things, but it is different when it comes from like a lot of conversation that doesn't just happen in that moment of transaction. And so I think we were really trying to like focus on like what would make that happen, like what values would make that possible. So I guess all about to say those values that we established at the outset, we had we had like an understanding of what they meant, but we didn't really, we hadn't lived them. So through my lifetime or like my career, I've like learned like what it means to actually live those values, have hard conversations, or like you know, put some of those things to the test while also realizing that like um it's harder, I think, to shop or to like start new relationships when you are really committed to living them. So we don't genuinely don't start working with a lot of new people. Like it it takes a lot, I think, for us to start working with someone new. Because one of the other things that we learned was like, okay, if we're growing and our business is growing, do we give the first right of refusal to people we're already working with? So that like if they want to work more with us and sell more, we want that too. Are we trying to grow our menu? Are we trying to offer new things to our customers? Like, basically, like, how do we determine what kind of growth we want? And how do we extend the ability for like for a producer to understand like could they be a part of that like growth and change if they wanted to? Um, so that yeah, that has genuinely generally meant we don't start working with a lot of new people. I think in my we yeah, we we don't like onboard new producers a lot.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

And we when I first started too, we kind of did an assessment of like, well, these are the places we've bought from in the past, like let's put our values sort of like system to the test to kind of like do a little report card on all these different coffees we've bought, or you know, supply chains, not just the coffee itself, but like everybody who's in it. So it's sort of like with the certification lens of like, okay, it's not just the producer, it's also the importer. Like, we can't just put the burden on one person, like one supply chain actor. It's gotta be all of us who care about some of this stuff. And that way, if we're also trying to problem solve, because I have learned that the hard way over the years too. You can have all the best intentions and still like shit can still hit the fan, and you have to figure out what to do. Like, it really doesn't work if you don't communicate well, or if someone's not responsive to you, or like doesn't really think the thing you're asking about is a big deal, or you know, um, if it's not affecting you, but it's affecting the producer, they're like, Oh, I'll deal with that separately, but you're like, I kind of need to know what's going on because I I don't know, it matters to us. So that is um all of that rambling is to say, like the the values I think support like really rich um like business relationships, and some of them have been personal, like I've had the great privilege of like getting to really spend time with people, but a lot of them haven't been, and I think that's also really okay. Like, I think the uh the values have also taught me that like you can really do good business together, and that does not require like becoming bosom buddies or like becoming best friends, which is what I think I saw modeled in my early life in it as a coffee person, is like um people just buy from their friends, and like the best chance you have of having a values-driven relationship is by having a relationship. But I yeah, I don't really think that's true. Um, certainly it's been a long time since I thought that was true, but the values help make it not matter. Like, you don't have to have a personal connection to like still do the right thing or do things in a way that makes you feel like you're you're being challenged. You're not just ticking the box every year, you're not just going through the motions. Um, and I mean I haven't gotten it right every time, you know, certainly. Um, but that's sort of the point, I think, of like a challenging value system that they kind of push you to show up better and better or push you to like really learn more and more like deeply what does gender equity mean in a particular place? That's not something that has like a one-sentence answer, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah. I think you're so right, too. If you were able to be like, yes, yes, yes, yes, it's probably not growing you the way that it would you'd want it to, or like the kind of impact that you're wanting to have as well. Um it isn't. There's so many layers to what you were just talking about that's so interesting. One, like not bringing on new producers frequently, like it probably helps you to like really hone in on what you're doing and what you're committing to to those producers. So like you can do it well with fewer and mostly the relationship with producers and what that relationship really needs to be. I think that there was so much marketing of like, I know them and we're that's like people want to know where their coffee comes from and this is their family and this is where they live, and this is like and I remember listening to something we're like, we really don't need to have that kind of access to someone. Like if that person wants to tell that story, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

But like we don't need, like that's not a business relationship. And I'm lucky that I have some friends that are producers that I truly consider to be friends. But so much of our friendship is like meeting up for dinner and stuff like that. And it has very little to do with the actual um business fact, like of how much I'm gonna buy or what I'm gonna do. Like, yes, it taught me a lot, but like when we sit down to have dinner, we're talking about our families, and it's very different relationship, and I have very few of those.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Um, and so I think right, totally.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

It's like they're still the most risk-burdened person, so it's like adding more and more work for them to like give you all this information. Um, but also like that isn't how a lot of our customers buy, like, they don't buy coffee from us because they know all the intimate details about like the founder and his family, you know. Like, um, over time, sure, there are people who've like known the Rubensteins like for 20 years because they've been, you know, they've been in the cafes, and like that's different. Like those, that's like um an opportunity to get to know someone, but people don't base their buying decisions on like having every single piece of information about their personal lives available. I think I learned that most like intensely too, like just hearing different stories of women like over the years, like even just in the Women Powered Coffee Summit. It's like it does feel so extractive to these women. It's like, well, what else are you doing? Are you a single head of household? Like how many um like incomes are contributing to the household? There's a lot of people who try to extract data um to like measure the work of women, and some of that is really, really, really helpful, right? Like what we measure. We can't measure, we can't sorry, we can't monitor or improve anything if we don't have measurements in place first. And that was like the industry's first step to making some of that invisible work visible. But it also feels like super intrusive in many ways in measuring what's happening in the home, you know, like that doesn't really happen in the same way here. Um, so I'd like to hope that we're moving past that in ways that feel like really like productive and meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

In your leadership position, do you feel like being a woman has affected that in any way, or do you feel like Joe's um has really like come up and surrounded you and that it's like you're the person and you're not necessarily seen as like the woman in this role. It's just that you're the person in this role.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah, I think Joe, I've been really lucky with Joe because I think Joe has always been um like queer in women run like since day one. So I don't know that it's um it's not something that I think they used to be intentional about. It was common sense, I think, to them. And then over the years I've seen it get more and more like intentional because we wanna we don't I don't want to like um run the risk of you know bad decisions being possible because we're not paying attention to it. It's definitely become more intentional over the years, but no, I think like I got I got the role because um I I have some of those skills that we were talking about, you know, like um being able to speak Spanish, like having already like roasted for a long time and having values alignment at the right time with Joe, you know, like I do think that's probably true of a lot of people. Like you have to be um, you have to care about some of the same things at the same time, you know, as the company that you're starting a role like that in. Um I do think Joe's had a long history of like women who are really great leaders, and so I think that has probably like shown um like you know how great women are at that. So I have have like, you know, I stand on the shoulders of some amazing women at Joe who've come before me, like the original director of coffee. So she probably like before there was a lot, like director was like the highest level role. Was a woman named Amanda Byron, and she sort of started the concept of like education and people need tools to learn to perform well. And um, she was like the only person at Joe could pour latte our when they started in like the mid-2000s, and she was like, everyone should know how to do this. This isn't like a skill, only I should own. And so she she kind of I think was the model leader for Joe and worked to Joe for um like 15, 16 years or something like that. Like I met her when I started, and she worked at Joe for a few years, um, and then moved with her family to Seattle. But yeah, I think like there were really great role models at Joe, and I hadn't actually seen that in other companies. Um, I can't I worked at other companies for sure. Like I'd worked at other companies for a long time, and I'd never seen women leaders be revered until working at Joe. So I do think like that made me, I think that gave me like a big sense of like confidence and sense of self. Um I think I had to do some learning, probably more like internally for me, and like undo some learning. And I think that experience was really beneficial. Um certainly very beneficial. But yeah, I think I was always like treated with a lot of respect, and a lot of people treated each other with respect. It was like an environment where that was cultivated, and I really I I like immediately like I have this story that I I was just telling my partner the other day of like when I I remember when I was like, I want to be at Joe forever. I was like had been working part-time at um another company and part-time at Joe. I was I was working a ton of jobs. I was like young, I had so much energy, I wanted to roast all the time. I was working for a company that didn't roast that much. They roast like one day, they wouldn't let me roast anywhere else. They wanted it was like a very weird competitive company. So I was like, okay, I'll work at a cafe. Like I was trying to just get um a lot of hours to stay alive in New York City, but also just get a lot of experience. And I had kind of a bad day at the one company, and then at Joe, I had a really great day, and they were going to a show to like for someone, someone who worked at Joe. There's a lot of artists and musicians um in New York in general, but they were going to a show for someone, like a bunch of Joe people were like, Yeah, let's go to the show, and they were all just so nice to each other.

SPEAKER_04 37:00

And it was like I can imagine like cried on the subway on the way home.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

I'm not joking, because I was like, kindness is making me cry. Like, this is the life I have right now, where like that feels so radical to me. Yeah, that is like why would anyone choose anything else? It doesn't it just seems like such a low bar.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Yeah. It it does, but at the same time, like I was radical. Yeah, I've been in jobs where I'm like, gosh, every single day I'm driving home and I'm crying versus like what I have now, and the people that I'm with now, we generally like care about what each other's doing and we want each other to have a good day, and they're just like a level of like knowing like you have my back and I have yours, and like it's gonna be okay, everything's gonna be fine. You're having a bad day, let me make it better. Like that's not always it's not the case, obviously. Like, we've both had experiences where that's not the case. What makes our culture happen?

SPEAKER_00 38:05

I mean, I think people I think it comes probably at like the hiring step, because we've I've seen people also like not do well here. Um and I I think like I've seen the the range of the type of people who don't do well here, which is kind of sad. I think people who have had really damaging or traumatic experiences in other companies who come in with like a sense of either like fear or like bravado, or like you have to constantly prove yourself, or um, those those don't make for good like collaborators, you know, and um those are usually moments when I can really appreciate like okay, yeah, people who do well here where that when we hire well, like they love to collaborate. There's a lot of good type of listening, there's a lot of like responsiveness and not um assuming someone else will cover the gaps. That is like um, yeah, it kind of has to be like co-created, you know. Like, I'll show up for you because I know you'll show up for me, and it makes it easy to do when the work gets hard or when the plate gets full, and you know, people have full plates a lot. So it makes it less like, oh my god, the world is on my shoulders. It's like, no, the world's on our shoulders, you know, because like if I'm late on a project, I can just be like, guys, I'm not getting this done this week. Um, it just isn't, and no one is like, oh, like, or you know, and everyone is either understanding or um, you know, I think there's just like that culture of we'll move through it. It's just hard to understate. It isn't like blind optimism, it's like um like like deeply rooted like a connection to the work that kind of lets you just you know be whatever it is that you need to be in it. Um that kind of makes people I think show up for each other pretty well.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah. Do you think um if you didn't do what you do uh with Joe? Do you think there's a different part of the coffee industry that you would be like, I'd love to try it. I would love to do it.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Yeah, I think um when I was younger, I used to think like I wanted to go into nonprofit work. Like um, I thought I had one of my friends best friends um like a master's in social justice and um and social work. I was like watching her journey, I was like, that seems just so cool. I think that's something that I would love to do. Because of her experience, I think I've realized that the the ebbs and flows and ups and downs and access to money and whatever, like is really similar to the coffee industry. We have some really lean months, you know. Yes too. So I I don't know, I feel like the older I get, the more I'm like, I think probably some of the challenges are the same in a lot of different sectors or corners of the same, you know, industry. Um, even if they look slightly different, or the type of people you're working with are doing different things. Yeah, I think it's um maybe this is also like just getting older, but like it makes me like so grateful for where I am. I don't really know that I spend a lot of time thinking about where else I want to be because I've worked so hard to learn how to be present now. You know, that's been one of the biggest uh challenges that I've tasked myself with, I guess. Like I used to think it was like a a task, like a homework assignment. Now I'm realizing that like I think it's just about letting go of how everything's a homework assignment, you know, just like being in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Um I think that's a good sign too, that you're like, actually I'm just gonna appreciate where I am right now. And I will also agree with you. Coffee is like so deeply about people that wanting to do nonprofit work or social work or social justice, like the role that you uh have right now actually is dealing with a lot of very similar topics because of what you do and what you're exposed to and having relationships both at the rotary or at the cafes, but also like throughout the supply chain, like you're seeing things that a lot of people don't see in other areas of business because it's just it's so in our face all the time what's going on with people. If you care to look, you see it constantly.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Totally. And I also think like just like having like um I get the privilege too of like having like cheerleader energy in the cafes because like I'm not anyone's boss like on the in like the retail side of things, you know, like because that's all um you know operations and um there are a lot of really skilled people there, but yeah, that's not my like department. So I get to just be like everything tastes great, you're doing awesome, you know, like it looks like you know you've had a great season, or it looks like it's you know been a rough season, but like you're doing great. Like I get to do that cheerleader energy, which I think is sort of like the version of like unconditional love for like you know, like for children or something. Like that's what I equate it to, of just like imagine how like healthy people would be if they got a lot more affirmation than they got criticism. So I do really feel like I get to do some of the good work that I enjoy. I also have the benefit of like being in a big company where like there's a lot of young people working in coffee that they should stay here and keep doing awesome things, and I get to kind of affirm that a little.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

I hope that they take it and you know if I was a new a newbie and I'm working at one of your cafes, but I like want to have a career in coffee, like what advice would you give me as a newbie?

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Probably like anything that you're Passionate about the coffee industry needs that passion. Yes. Um, I get to do these, like we do these classes once a month called Joe 101. It's very cute, where we just introduce all new people to the company and the founder gives a little like welcome, and we talk about our values, and I get to taste. We I'd hold a cupping of like all the coffees on our menu, so we get to know them and talk about um sourcing values and stuff. Um, but we always learn about who they are, which is really helpful. We're like, you know, 350 people company, like I can't know all of them, so that's my best chance of like meeting people and hopefully like remembering something about them. But um, all of them are so interesting and have do so many different things, and we always ask them to do a fun fact, and they just do so many different things. So a lot of the time I'm like, oh my gosh, you're interested in social, oh my gosh, like you're interested in design, or like that's anything that anyone could possibly have like a passion in or for, like, there is a job for that in coffee, and I don't I think that very few people hear that. Yeah, it's not just a one-way street of like you have to become a roaster, or like the ultimate goal is to become CEO. I don't know, whatever it is people think actually anymore, because I'm not a young person anymore, but the yeah, whatever it is that they love, like come do that in coffee. Or that like a lot of your skills that come together, like even if you don't know everything about everything and you're not like the best designer or whatever, like you can do a lot of things with a lot of like the variety of skills that you have in one job, and that also is something that's like there is like a touch of the startup energy about coffee in that like a lot of people figure out how to do different things within the jobs that they have without having it have like have to be a clear cut. So I love that. I do love that about coffee though. I mean, if you don't love that, then coffee is challenging, yeah. Right, but but I do think um that that does really like serve people well, and you also don't have to know everything about something, and nobody knows everything about anything. I think that as a young person, that is also something I did not really get, that I thought I had to like know everything about something in order to be qualified for whatever came next. Maybe that's like the gendered unlearning, you know, I had to go through, but um I also try to reiterate that that like you can try something or you can learn as you go. There are a lot of roles that allow for that in coffee, um, and that should take advantage, you know, learn as you go, and you don't have to have it all.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Yeah, I would actually say coffee is a great industry for that. So many people in coffee are inventive or creative, no matter like where you're looking or like what role you're supporting. Like, so many of us have to have that mindset of like, well, how do we do it different or how do we pivot? That you even if like we talked about earlier, even if you like read the book and you know everything, that changes tomorrow. Like, so much changes that it might actually be a benefit in some roles to not know everything because you don't come in with that ego of like, well, I'm so and so, you know, like there's so many of us that I think the more successful I feel the more successful people are, it's because they can pivot quickly and they can figure out a new strategy and problem solve fast.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

You're so smart. Yeah, I think you're describing also though a little bit of like emotional intelligence, which is also something I try to talk to people about um way more frequently than I used to now, is that like that in itself is um a skill or it's like a knowledge base that you should you should learn and be learning and continue to learn in um because it's such a people-driven industry. I think that's actually something that a lot of us knew intuitively when we were younger, like the coffee dinosaurs, you know, like I think that drew us to the coffee industry in a lot of ways, you know, like away from corporate America or like, you know, choosing to work in places that were maybe a little bit more like political or radical or like fringe or you know, because that's that's a lot of people I worked with in coffee in the early, early days were people who like who were like that, but they um there's a lot more emotional intelligence, I think, than in that particular niche group of people. Now I think it's a skill that it's like it's not as commonly talked about. It is a skill that needs to be sharpened, and it's a skill we need. Um, it's not just yeah, facts. So I think like being more intentional, open, and talking about it is really important.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah. That's a great point too. I mean, like the coffee culture of what cafes were, or like small hometown cafes and what they have grown into and the difference and the cultural difference between cafes, like the people that worked at them were also different. And like it's just like a completely different culture. Um I feel like not maybe, I don't know. I every once in a while like maybe I don't say this, but I'm going to. Um like coffee houses and coffee like cafes have always been a place where people can come and congregate and like throw ideas around and make changes, and a lot of really good things have happened in cafes. And I feel like in the time in our lives that we're in right now and what's going on in the world, like maybe some of that does come back to cafes and we talk more about emotional intelligence, but we also create the space to have like a safety net in order for people to like keep talking about like what really needs to change in our communities and be more of that community forward place too.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

That's my TED talk. That's my soapbox for the day. And bring it back to the book.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

I think that's so true. Yeah. Bring it back to but that's also bringing it back to people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like creating spaces people want to be in, creating spaces people feel comfortable in that they can see themselves in. That is my big call-out specialty coffee. Like we took a dark turn where I think we made a lot of spaces that not everybody felt like they belonged in. Yeah. Um, and we're coming back around now. Yeah, the coffee snob era. But that did feel like I think a good choice to have exactly what you're describing available. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Is there anything that we haven't talked about quite yet or that you would like to share, or that you're excited about or that's making you happy these days?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Um Well, I I had an overwhelming moment yesterday with finances. Which is truly not my favorite part of my job, even though it is an enormous part of what I do. Um, and I was like, ugh, like I was like, this is just um it's just hard. And I feel like maybe just the reminder that like no matter what job you have or like where you are, like today in the clear light of day, I was like, yes, that was a very hard moment, but it won't kill me, and I won't die, and there are people I can ask for help, and I just need to ask someone for help so I don't just sit and wallow and be stuck in it. Um, and I don't know, that that felt like a small epiphany this morning that like just ask for help. And I think maybe one of the like uh hard lessons in leadership that I keep having to learn, one of your excellent questions is like um it is totally okay to ask for help, it doesn't matter like who you are, where you are. Um, and that yeah, those hard moments of feeling stuck, it's like ephemeral, it's temporary, it won't always feel that way. So that is the thing I'm trying to remind myself today, because I know it's true. Yeah, I've had a lot of like hard moments of feeling like oh my god, this is the hardest thing I've ever done, you know, and you get through them, yeah, especially if someone is there to help you.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Thank you so much, Joe Matteries, for spending some time with us today in the sidecar. I hope you enjoyed the conversation just as much as I did. And again, part two will be out soon, and that part of the conversation is even more special. So I hope that you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you as always for spending some time in the sidecar with me. It's honestly such a pleasure to chat with you soon. Bye.